The following is the (mostly) raw text file from our chat on Tuesday, October 5, 2004. It was logged by Marc Schmalz, so it begins and ends as he enters and leaves the chat room.

<RichRedman> Okay, the chat has officially started. Who's got topics?
<Roudi> I got topics.
<Roudi> MODERNIZED is late. So very late.
<RichRedman> Roudi! Roudi! Roudi!
<Garen> ROFL
<Roudi> We're sitting on a very large pile of Future goodness and we're late.
<TGM_Stan> That's not a topic ... that's an "issue"
* tal actuakky wanted to talk about rich's latest article
<Roudi> It'd be a topic if you discussed it :)
<RichRedman> Technically, it's more than one issue. It is after all a periodical.
<tal> replacing Ks with Ls of course
<RichRedman> Okay, tal, what's up?
<Roudi> Which article specifically, tal?
<tal> Well, first, as a dude who wants to break into d20 writing, it was a damned good rant thing you wrote
<RichRedman> I assume he meant "How to break into gaming"
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<RichRedman> Was I ranting?
<Roudi> Wanting to break in? What's stopping you?
<tal> were you? i figured that was just the word to use =)
<JDWiker> When are you not?
<RichRedman> Quiet you.
<TGM_Stan> Turns out Rich ALSO has a new Notes From The Bunker article up at WotC
<Gary> Hello, boys and ghouls.
<RichRedman> Gah! I do!
<Roudi> Ah!
<Garen> When he's in a medication-induced coma. Other than that, it's rant time!
<JDWiker> Hello, Gary.
<RichRedman> Not true! Not true!
<tal> suffice to say, stan gave me a lot of advice towards being able to send stuff to publishers as well. i just wondered if you had any thoughts on a good way to send cold submissions
<TGM_Stan> But you DO have the most rants in you, Rich
<tal> cause really, aside from Stan and the dragonlance folks, people don't know me from their d12
<Garen> My advice regarding cold submissions is to be VERY familiar with the company's policy about them.
<effrenatus> I'll have to ge tthe new notes linked from our site.
<JDWiker> Cold submissions? Not a whole lot of advice I can give there, aside from "don't do it."
<Garen> A lot of companies don't want them, won't read them, and might hold it against you if you try to send them.
<Roudi> tal - it really shouldn't matter whether the publishers know you or not... after all, submissions are judged by content and not by authorship
<tal> yeah, i figured as much
<Peterson> Wait - fill a rookie in...Cold submissions are?
<tal> sending crap to people unasked
* Garen actually doesn't know any company that wants cold submissions.
* Roudi puts up his hand
* tal has been spending the time since gencon dilligently working on a d20 game about mythic india
<RichRedman> Well, actually, I talked about cold submissions (not by that name) in my article. I don't recommend them. I recommend getting writer's guidelines from a periodical and talking to editors about what articles they need. Start there.
<Roudi> We can't PAY YOU for submissions, but we'll take them and publish them.
<Peterson> Oh..so those pics of Rich and a broomstick are considered "Cold Submissions"?
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<Spicer> Hoi...
<TGM_Stan> Hi, Spicer
<Spicer> Hello.
<Roudi> Actually, let me revise that. You're working on a whole setting?
<Spicer> Wow. Am I late or did everyone show up early?
<Peterson> I've got a topic question that is carried over from last week, whenever I can jump in.
<tal> along the lines of Green Ronin's testament, yes
<Peterson> Well, Rich was staging a coup based on "Get him".
<Roudi> Hmm...
<effrenatus> I thought he was just trying to get rid of me :)
<JDWiker> That aside, we're talking about submitting material to publishers.
<RichRedman> Let's get Peterson on a topic before I can't stop myself from booting him. What's your topic, Peterson?
<Roudi> If you're expecting to be published in print, or of a quality similar to a Green Ronin product, I'm afraid I couldn't offer you that kind of publishing - Gallantry Productions doesn't have that kind of resources.
<Roudi> But, if you were looking to make a start publishing some ebooks, then we certainly could help.
<Peterson> Thanks Rich. I suggested a module or supplement that covered Conspiracies of varying degrees and (I think) your name came up, Rich.
<RichRedman> Suggested it to who, and when?
<tal> well, as a child i was told to aim too high, so that i could hit average =)
<JDWiker> Last week, Rich.
<TGM_Stan> We mentioned that you have been talking about a project like that, Rich
<Peterson> Just last week I suggested it and in this very chat room
<RichRedman> And my name came up? Hmmm...there must be a leak somewhere...
<RichRedman> I can say no more.
<Peterson> Darn conspiracies...
<Spicer> Aha! Conspiracy #1...
* Roudi holds up a sign that says "NDA! Next topic please..."
<effrenatus> Rule #1 - you don't talk about the conspiracies.
<RichRedman> Heh
<Peterson> I thought Rule #1 was Don't talk about Fight Club?
<TGM_Stan> Rule #2 - There ARE no conspiracies
<JDWiker> Not constructive, guys.
<tal> so, um, Stan, how's that book coming?
<RichRedman> Spicer, I believe you posted a general topic to our boards.
<Spicer> Yes, I did, Rich. It was in response to your own Chat posting...and since I couldn't post a response in that forum, I tried the adventure forum.
<Roudi> "The first rule of Nerd Club is... you do not e-mail anyone about Nerd Club!"
<TGM_Stan> Tal> If you're asking about the novel I was working on, it's done and in the editor's hands ... I'm now working on Modern Organizations
<Spicer> Anyone game for exploring that topic?
<RichRedman> I'd be happy to.
<RichRedman> A couple of "chats" ago I mentioned a potential topic to Stan! after Rich and JD left a little early. It involved an examination of the various approaches you guys have used in crafting adventures. Something along the lines of a comparison/contrast of Stan's Heartless series of linking several adventures together...Rich's approach in designing Come for the Reaping...JD's take on things...the methods used for Slave Drivers...and so on. Possible lines of discussion include:
<RichRedman> 1) From where do you draw your inspiration?
<RichRedman> 2) Which parts of adventure design come easiest and which require more effo
<Spicer> Shall I paraphrase...or is everyone up to speed on the sheer plethora of questions I asked about adventure design?
<effrenatus> I'll have to see about opening posts up there for Rich.
<RichRedman> 2) Which parts of adventure design come easiest and which require more effort or innovation?
<RichRedman> 3) What style (i.e., site-based, event-based, story-driven, etc.) do you favor...and when...?
<RichRedman> 4) How do you approach selecting and defining the right ELs during the adventure?
<RichRedman> 5) How do you balance the "encounters" of an adventure to provide something challenging for all of the possible hero professions?
<RichRedman> 6) How often do you look to include "new" material in an adventure...such as a new monster, new spell, new feat, new prestige class, new rule variant, etc.?
<RichRedman> 7) What adventure scenarios do you reme
<TGM_Stan> Find the message Spicer is talking about here: (EZBoard Link)
<RichRedman> 7) What adventure scenarios do you remember most fondly and what design elements about them appealed to you so much?
<RichRedman> Anyone game for that kind of discussion? I'm offering this up as both a discussion for the chat tonight as well as here in the forums. Maybe we can all get a peek at what goes on inside a Game Mechanic's mind during this creative process...and/or share some of our own approaches, opinions, or experiences.
<TGM_Stan> Or read what Rich just posted
<Spicer> Wow. You guys really came prepared for this one.
<JDWiker> Uh, yeah. The first thing.
<Roudi> I'm definitely game for it, as I am struggling to write my first adventure
* Spicer thanks Stan!
<RichRedman> So, my answer to question #1, is that it's probably another essay all by itself. I get my ideas from books, news articles, movies, comics, and my life.
<TGM_Stan> Sure. I'm glad to talk about this topic
<tal> i find it incredibly difficult to actually sit down and write an adventure
<tal> since every game i've ever run has been very organix
<Roudi> Agreed, tal... especially one meant to be published
<JDWiker> Dragon has a good article this month on the 30 best adventures in RPGs. If you've got those, it could be helpful to figure out what works.
<tal> organic, even
<tal> (dungeon, JD, not dragon)
<TGM_Stan> Yeah. I agree with Rich. The sources of inspiration are quite varied
<Spicer> Are there specific everyday things that serve up inspiration, Rich? Do you find any particular source more useful than others?
<RichRedman> I find that I typically write GMCs and plots first. I usually write what I know about GMCs and their motivations before I ever bother doing a stat block.
<JDWiker> Same thing.
<Garen> GMC=NPC?
<tal> or BBEG?
<RichRedman> A hard part for me is then breaking it down from story to adventure. Figuring out how the heroes get involved, and several avenues for getting from point A to point B.
<RichRedman> GMC = Gamemaster Character
<Spicer> That's kind of the approach that I've been adopting lately. A certain character concept (i.e., villain) takes form first...and then a story gets shaped around that.
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<TGM_Stan> Hi, Rodney
<Garen> Rodney!
<Roudi> Allo Rodney
<Spicer> Hey Rodney...
<effrenatus> Hey, RT.
<JDWiker> Hey, Rod.
<RodneyThompson> Hey guys.
<RichRedman> I don't favor a particular style, or at least I try not to. I try to vary things for my gaming group. Certainly site-based is easier to write.
<Gary> Hi, Rodnet.
<Garen> Okay, no more talk about how Star Wars sucks.
<Gary> Er. Rodney, even.
<RodneyThompson> Adventure design, right?
<Roudi> Aye
<tal> so then, how do you approach writing a module when you don't know what the target group is?
<Roudi> What do you mean by site-based?
<tal> do you make something deliberatly blank, like b2?
<Garen> Site-based: A dungeon, ship, castle, home, mansion, train, etc.
<TGM_Stan> Yeah, if you're writing an adventure to be distributed (electronically or in print), it is MUCH easier to do site-based than story-based
<Spicer> Site-based is more about defining an area of opportunity for heroes to explore, Roudi. It's less story-driven. The heroes are free to go this way and that way. Certain encounters will inevitably await them.
<Roudi> Ah.
<RichRedman> If you're writing fantasy d20, you should really use the EL guidelines in the DMG and Monster Manual. Modern d20 I find to be quite a bit harder, and I often just eyeball things. I long ago gave up trying to write an adventure that moved people from one character level to another, and concentrated instead on writing complete stories - let the experience fall as it may.
<Roudi> I can see how that provides the greatest freedom for GMs and players
<Spicer> I'm not sure why...but I have more trouble doing site-based than event-based. I tend to drive off plot...which makes my adventures "steer" my players a bit too much at times.
<Peterson> Okay, but when do you start considering "This adventure is scaled for X characters of X level"? Right off the bat or in the end after you write it all?
<tal> it fits in well with the concept that 3e is a modular crunch-based system, and the assumption that the DM is running a homebrew and can fit your adventure in his/her campaign
<TGM_Stan> Even if you ARE doing story based ... if there is a way to accurately project what path the heroes will take, you can build it like a site-based adventure. The heroes will just have to choose between going forward or going back
<RichRedman> I don't try to cover all the possibilities when I write. I try to create adventures with a wide variety of skill checks and combat encounters, though my players have clearly identified the "investigate" phase and the "combat" phase in some of my adventures. So I've now started trying to mix those up.
<JDWiker> Peterson: You can start off planning that way, though you may find you have to adjust later.
<RichRedman> I always consider the level for which I'm writing at the beginning.
<Spicer> I've been poring over some site-based adventures from old issues of Dungeon and I can see where there's still a story embedded within. There's just multiple ways it can be told depending on which direction the heroes pursue first.
<Peterson> Okay, thanks
<TGM_Stan> Practically NO adventure will go off exactly the way the designer plans. The most important thing is for the antagonists to be motivated and have particular agendas ... that way, the GM can have them adapt to whatever the heroes throw at them.
<Spicer> I'm starting off with a certain level in mind for adventures and then find myself tailoring it as new ideas come out during the actual writing and crafting of each encounter.
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<effrenatus> Hello, newcomers.
<TGM_Stan> Welcome Geist .... Yrsa
<Roudi> Hey Geist & Yrsa... we're discussing adventure writing
<Geist> sup stan :)
<Geist> oh excellent
<RichRedman> I don't believe in reinventing the wheel. I pore through books before I ever try to create new material. With the wealth of fantasy d20 material that easily converts to Modern, I hardly ever create new stuff.
* Geist needs help with that
thanks
<tal> my favorite (and only) urban arcana campaign i ran was the Insurance Company of Elemental Evil
<tal> with obvious inspiration.
<JDWiker> ... which was?
<RichRedman> Having said that, I avoid naming things that my heroes have never encountered before. They still don't know what the "shark monsters in ponchos" (their name, not mine) were.
<JDWiker> (Kidding.)
<tal> queen of the drow, of course =)
<Peterson> When doing fairly realistic adventures, how much research do you guys pore into it? Like if there's a firefight in an old coal mine, do you guys do book research, try to visit one, what?
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<JDWiker> I do quite a bit.
* tal doesnt know how many old coal mines are in seattle, but i'll bet the seattle underground would make a great mod...
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<TGM_Stan> Definitely book research. If there's a possibility of doing an on-site visit, that's even better.
<Roudi> Hey Hild.
<RichRedman> I do a HUGE amount of research when I write adventures. In fact, I do WAY too much. When Schmalz gets off his lazy butt and starts pumping out PDFs, you'll see some of the research I've done for my home campaign.
<Roudi> Marc the layout guy?
<Peterson> Thanks...that's one thing I enjoy doing is the research.
<TGM_Stan> Renton actually supplied most of the coal for the Puget Sound region up until the 1920s
<Spicer> Has the Internet proven a useful tool for research as well? I've used it when selecting real-life cities as the locale for an adventure.
<RodneyThompson> The More You Know....
<Peterson> The More Its Going Hurt?
<RichRedman> I find the Internet hugely useful for research, and make a point of keeping a "research" folder of bookmarks.
<effrenatus> My butt may be in a chair, but it's not completely lazy :)
<TGM_Stan> But it's a mistake to think that you have to be an EXPERT on a subject to write an adventure about it.
<Roudi> One of the benefits of being a University student is that a lot of my courses can provide adventure inspiration... kind of a reverse process. Research first, decide to write adventure later.
<Garen> Yeah!
* Garen just wants to see his stuff come out. :P
* tal based a game session on a Miltonic poem once. it was really long and boring, and often devolved into latin lectures
<RichRedman> I agree with Stan! I'm certainly no expert on most of the things that I've written adventures about, but I knew more than my players did, and that gave an air of versimilitude to the game.
<Roudi> Which poem?
<RichRedman> JD once wrote a Feng Shui adventure based on Hamlet. That's probably the one I remember most fondly.
<Roudi> Nice.
<TGM_Stan> The more you learn, the more you'll be inspired ... but unless the adventure is ABOUT coal mining (as our example), you don't actually NEED to know all that much to write or run an adventure set in one.
<Spicer> So what about balancing an adventure's encounters to ensure all of the heroes have a chance to shine?
<tal> god, i don't recall off hand. it was one of his early poems, and really really boring =)
<Roudi> Right now my current goal is to set an adventure in the late 1500's, where a performance of Dr. Faustus actually succeeds in summoning a demon :)
<JDWiker> Try to do so whenever possible, Spicer.
<tal> i would think that trying to balance an adventure for all classes would be almost unreasonable
*** Signoff: Garen (User has been mind-ripped)
<Roudi> Indeed, tal
<JDWiker> For Flight 23, I kept copies of the character sheets handy, so that I could make sure the heroes were challenged by the DCs I set.
<TGM_Stan> Well, if you're writing for a specific group, then you KNOW what they're capable of and you can include something for each of them to do.
<RodneyThompson> I think it's one of the reasons I like writing fantasy adventures more. Less of a chance someone who IS an expert on, say, coal mines will poke holes in it. No matter how much research you do, SOMEONE will always know more.
<Spicer> JD> That's a given. What kinds of balanced situations have you used before? Any advice, tricks, examples?
<RichRedman> To a certain extent, I don't think that you can worry about it. You can't predict how every group of players will go through the adventure, so some of your encounters may go unnoticed. I try to provide ways to accomplish goals through combat, stealth, research, and nonviolent interaction, and then let players go at it.
<Roudi> Stan... there's a huge difference between writing adventures just for one's player group, and publishable adventures. I guess that begs the question... which are we discussing here?
<TGM_Stan> If you're writing for ageneral audience, you should just be certain to include a bunch of different TYPES of encounters (fights, diplomacy, traps, obstacles, etc.) so that various types of characters might have moments in the spotlight.
<tal> rodney- heh. that was my problem with James Wyatt's Mahasarpa campaign, for instance, or Green Ronin's Mindshadows. they just couldnt emulate an Indian gaming ideal good enough for me to believe it
<RichRedman> I don't write adventures just for my play group. The difference between and adventure that I write for publication and an adventure that I write for home use is that I write MORE for publication. For my own use, I can go off sketchier notes.
<TGM_Stan> But remember that no matter how much you plan, there's nothing you can do if the "fighter" character decides to muscle through the "dexterity" trap.
<JDWiker> Spicer: Hm. I can't call up any examples off the top of my head.
<Spicer> Those still push a single or only a couple members of the party forward in each encounter though. How do you plan for the single encounter where everyone has something to do?
<tal> thats on the DM, i'd think
<tal> to tailor the message to the group
<Gary> I gotta run. Have fun, guys!
<Spicer> Seeya, Gary...
<RichRedman> I regard that as the players' problem, not mine as the designer.
<JDWiker> Ask me again in the message boards.
* tal nods
*** Signoff: Gary ((null))
<tal> yeah, a DM would know his group best, and would take that into consideration before purchasing a module
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* Geist shakes the JDwiker 8 ball to see if he gets the "ask me again in the message boards"
<tal> a game with two mages and a bard isn't going to want to play "fighter's favorite", frex
<TGM_Stan> Spicer> I'm not sure you CAN plan a single encounter to challenge EVERY type of character. Though, I'd be happy to be proven incorrect.
<RodneyThompson> Not only that, but why would you want a challenge that required everyone to pass? What if one of the party members was unconscious, or even died earlier in the adventure?
<RichRedman> I mean, I could design an encounter where the Smart hero had to disarm a bomb while the Strong hero held a door shut and the Fast hero shot some people while the Charismatic hero talked a GMC into moving to safety, but what if your group is missing one of those classes? I've wasted my time.
<Peterson> Heh..I think you're "Canyon Road" adventure about covered it the way my latest batch of players handled it....
<Spicer> I guess the challenging element I've been facing with some of my own adventure designs is that the "diplomatic" encounter leaves the muscle-boys with little to do. Same goes for some of the combat scenarios in reverse. And those situations where you're running a VR hacker can often leave a large number of characters sidelined with less to do.
<JDWiker> The trick there is up to the GM, then.
<RichRedman> See, that's why I hate VR rules and starship combat. They leave most of the group eating pizza and bullshitting.
<RodneyThompson> Spicer: How long are each of these encounters going? 5 or 10 minutes? An hour?
* Geist thinks you build an adventure encounter and its really up to the pc's to find their place in it some times.
<TGM_Stan> *heh* ... Thanks, Peterson ... that was fun to write because all the while I was thinking about various groups I've run and how much this adventure would screw them up ... *lol*
<Spicer> I have small things I've done to provide opportunities for others to do things during such scenes. I'm just curious about how you guys have approached it.
<JDWiker> The GM needs to make sure that any one encounter doesn't drag on too long.
<Hildulf> Unless that's the point of the encounter, of course.
<RichRedman> My group just seems to understand that in some parts of the adventure, the Smart and Charismatic heroes will shine, and in others the Strong, Fast, and Tough heroes will shine.
<Garen> Ahh... time-motivated adventuring. My favorite.
<tal> anyway, i believe there is a debate on, so i bid you all good evening. I'm sad that i couldn't meet you at gencon Rich, but it was great seeing all the rest of you guys. later =)
<Spicer> I don't know that from an adventure design standpoint I've ever really tagged a scene as needing to last a set amount of time. That's usually determined by how the players run their character reactions and involvement.
<TGM_Stan> I agree with JD. There's an important difference between what a designer is responsible for, and what a GM must do to execute well for his or her campaign
*** Signoff: tal ((null))
<RichRedman> I do try to balance how many of each type of encounter there is, so no one spends the entire adventure with nothing to do.
<RichRedman> brb
<Peterson> Yeah, as much as I love the "canyon" adventure, I've always modified it in some way.
<Spicer> Okay. Makes sense. I guess I'm fishing for any ideas where the game designer can make the GM's job easier by including suggested ways of involving the various professions.
<TGM_Stan> In an adventure I wrote for the RPGA, I started by giving the heroes as much free reign as they wanted. Then, at a particular point in the adventure, they literally found themselves in a count-down situation and they just had to get through the rest as quickly as possible.
<effrenatus> The debate is starting, FYI.
<Spicer> I'm definitely balancing things out by including scenes where various heroes are certainly spotlighted more than the others...but at the same time, I'm trying to include small little side opportunities for the other heroes to still be engaged during that moment.
<Peterson> brb
*** Garen is now known as President_Garen
* President_Garen has successfully staged his coup. Rejoice!
<Roudi> I didn't vote for you.
<JDWiker> Not a bad idea, Spicer.
<effrenatus> Rich was apparently driving the conversation.
<RodneyThompson> I find it better to create my encounters such that they serve the story. How the party gets by them is another matter altogether.
<Roudi> Seems like
<effrenatus> I don't write adventures. Or run games. So I'm lost :)
<RichRedman> The more that's going on in an encounter, the harder it is for the GM to run the encounter. I think your goal is extremely admirable, and probably highly useful to beginner GMs, just make sure that you balance giving everyone something to do with how much work the GM has to do in order to run the encounter.
<RodneyThompson> I like to let my players get creative.
<TGM_Stan> How about another part of Spicer's question: 2) Which parts of adventure design come easiest and which require more effort or innovation?
<Spicer> I think I start with that approach, Rodney. The story certainly gets served first. But then I go back into each of those story-driven encounters and, after acknowledging that they'll feature certain heroes more than others, I look for ways to widen that scene to give the others something to hang their hats on too.
<RichRedman> A hard part for me is then breaking it down from story to adventure. Figuring out how the heroes get involved, and several avenues for getting from point A to point B.
<RodneyThompson> The easiest part of adventure design? Reading the end result.
<Hildulf> Heh.
<TGM_Stan> I feel the same as Rich. I almost always start with a story ... the hard part is making it into an adventure.
<JDWiker> I think the easiest part is the "read-aloud" text--if all of the adventures I've seen with pages of read-aloud text are any indication.
<RichRedman> I have two Bunker articles in the can that talk about writing in general, so you're going to see some of this info again, but in more detail.
* Geist loves the "boxed text"
<RodneyThompson> Side Note: I don't know when they started doing this, but WotC has started including read-aloud text in their monster descriptions, which I find to be beyond cool.
<Spicer> Really? I find the read-aloud text difficult to draft at times. Sometimes it comes off sounding too campy...at least to my own jaded ears. So I keep going back over it.
<Geist> boxed text is the experience giver for new GM's :P (150xp per box read) :P
<TGM_Stan> And writing up stat blocks ... that's not technically hard, but it's the most soul-sucking part of writing an adventure as far as I'm concerned
<Roudi> AGREED
<RodneyThompson> And mind-numbing, Stan! I always do that last because it's so dull.
<JDWiker> Heh, Stan's right about that.
<RichRedman> Writing boxed text is a lot like writing dialogue. It's a lot harder than it looks. I generally don't put it in adventures I write for home.
<Peterson> Can I ask a question that might just get me flamed here about CR design?
<JDWiker> Spicer: What I mean is that it's easy to get carried away with read-aloud text.
<Spicer> The hardest part for me in story-driven adventure design has been the climactic scene. I keep looking for ways to drive up the tension factor...mostly because I want it to have the potential for coming off like a well-done movie.
<RichRedman> Man, I don't feel that bad about stat blocks. Ask away Peterson.
* Geist doesnt mind building NPC's but is glad for the menace manual since it will cut down on time used for npc's
<Roudi> Rich - I think that depends on the person. I find dialogue & descriptive text is very easy to write.
<Roudi> Geist, you don't do the Brood's NPCs. I wouldn't speak.
<Peterson> Especially with the release of D20 Future, why doesn't a person's equipment figure into the overall CR rating?
<TGM_Stan> Someone once said to me (and it might be JD) that he tried to never write read-aloud text that took more than one breath to say.
<Geist> Roudi> i did them for a time. and as i said to ralts. id rather build them from scratch than converting them or "laying out created ones"
<Spicer> Aren't you supposed to limit someone's equipment according to his or her Wealth capability? I thought it was a built-in CR consideration.
<RichRedman> First off, Peterson asks a good question.
<Spicer> Stan> Sounds like good advice.
<Roudi> Geist, that's all well and good until you have to do 70 of them for a single book.
<Peterson> Well, Wealth capability is a consideration, but what about wealthy corporations/governments that supply equipment?
<RichRedman> In fantasy d20, wealth by character level and treasure values are balanced by EL. So if you go by the books, encounters should be balanced with equipment.
<RichRedman> In modern d20, that tends not to be true.
<RichRedman> As a GM, I don't like giving cool expensive equipment to GMCs unless it's equipment that I wouldn't mind seeing in the hands of my heroes.
<Spicer> So do you just bump up the CR based on the "challenge" of the overall situation as suggested in the rulebook?
<RichRedman> I tend to focus more on whether to use ordinaries or heroic GMCs. And I do take situation into account when awarding XPs.
<Peterson> In the rulebook, it actually suggests only adding 1/3 more of the experience if the baddies have a significant advantage.....
<Spicer> I agree with that. An important element of adventure design for me is to know the intended character level and don't toss in any equipment to the opposition that you don't want falling into their hands yet.
<effrenatus> Maybe I shouldn't be listening to this debate. My heart rate has doubled.
<RichRedman> When we write a Future product, I certainly intend for us to address the impact of equipment (including things like genetic engineering and cybernetics) on CR. We'll see what actually happens.
<TGM_Stan> I REALLY like that part of the rules. I like the fact that how much XP you get is variable, and in part dependent on how threatening the situation turned out to be (in other words, how well the GM ran it).
<Peterson> Right, I do too Stan...Good to hear, Rich.
<RodneyThompson> Stan: Seems like the kind of thing an RPG should have. Variable XP depending on the outcome of the adventure, that is.
<Spicer> (or in "other" other words, how much sadistic pain the GM inflicted on the heroes) :)
<RichRedman> The simple fact is that d20 Modern is three books in one - PH, DMG, and MM. It doesn't address all topics in as much depth as someone might like (but it's still a Hell of a book, and I'm proud I was part of it). So I often look to fantasy d20 for more detailed guidelines.
<TGM_Stan> Marc> You're tracking your heart rate?
<Peterson> (By the way, I wasn't trying to bash D20 Future - I love it, I just was concerned from an adventure-building basis)
<effrenatus> Hyperbole.
<RichRedman> Of course he is. He's a geek. Probably got a monitor plugged into a USB port.
<RodneyThompson> We'll forgive you....this time, Peterson.
<effrenatus> I'm just glad I don't know my blood pressure at this point :)
<Spicer> That's what I've been doing, too, Rich. I've had to turn back to D&D's D20 advice and rules for some expanded thoughts on D20 Modern. But even then, there's some things that the Modern genre just needs to handle differently.
<RodneyThompson> ;)
<RichRedman> I don't think anyone is bashing anything. Adventure design is a difficult subject, and you need to ask hard questions to get the information that you need.
<Peterson> Better Rodney, or I might not let you out of that basement....;)
<RichRedman> Spicer > agreed.
<Roudi> Spicer... like?
<Spicer> Okay...so what about question #6...?
<RodneyThompson> Hey, Mechanics who make the descisions: If you guys put on a "how to design an adventure" seminar at GenCon next year, I bet a bunch of people would show up.
<RodneyThompson> Me included.
<RichRedman> Well, equipping GMCs for the right EL is probably one
<Peterson> Er...what was #6 again?
<TGM_Stan> 6) How often do you look to include "new" material in an adventure...such as a new monster, new spell, new feat, new prestige class, new rule variant, etc.?
<Spicer> Roudi> Just as we've been talking about...i.e., factoring equipment or cybernetics or mutations into CR ratings and ELs, and so on.
<RichRedman> I don't believe in reinventing the wheel. I pore through books before I ever try to create new material. With the wealth of fantasy d20 material that easily converts to Modern, I hardly ever create new stuff.
<Roudi> Ah
<Spicer> Ah, you indicated that earlier.
<effrenatus> Another seminar. We're getting a big list :)
<Roudi> I've never found CR to be too useful to begin with, mysellf
<RodneyThompson> Well, you don't have to do the same ones every year.
<Roudi> Even in d20 fantasy
<RodneyThompson> Rich: Also seems like one of the reasons the template system was introduced. What's old is new again.
<Spicer> CR is actually one of my favorite elements to the D20 system. A lot of other games don't give you something that handy to gauge encounter designs with...
<TGM_Stan> I occasionally invent a new weapon or other piece of equipment. I've even invented a couple of new creatures. But generally I think that adventures are BEST when they just use the existing material.
<RichRedman> One thing that we haven't addressed is playtesting. I can't say strongly enough that you should do some. When I wrote "Come for the Reaping," I originally didn't anticipate a hero barricading a door, chopping a hole in it, then shooting zombies from relative safety.
<effrenatus> I think that was my idea, actually :)
<TGM_Stan> Figures
<TGM_Stan> ;^)
<effrenatus> The key to fighting zombies is to be smarter than them.
<JDWiker> Whuh?
<Peterson> I SUPPORT playtesting.
<Spicer> Hmm..smarter than a zombie. That's reaching high, Marc. ;)
<JDWiker> Whuh?
<RichRedman> The thing about CR that NOBODY seems to get is that it CAN'T be more than a guideline. GM skill level, which we've mentioned several times, has a tremendous affect on CR/EL.
<RodneyThompson> Might I also suggest playtesting an adventure more than once, if you have the ability.
<RichRedman> And Marc, I'm pretty sure that Sugar thought of it.
<RodneyThompson> With different groups, that is.
<Peterson> With more than one party as well
<TGM_Stan> And, as we at TGM often do, have someone ELSE run the adventure while you take notes
<effrenatus> Perhaps.
<Spicer> Rich > Agreed. I've found it to be a useful tool for getting started. But beyond that, it definitely needs more tweaking for genres outside of Fantasy.
<effrenatus> I know I asked about existing windows in the doors :)
<TGM_Stan> You learn MORE about what's REALLY in the adventure as opposed to what you INTEND to be in there
<RichRedman> Heh, right on Stan!
<RodneyThompson> Stan: That's very true, and I'm glad you mentioned it.
<JDWiker> Nah, I think it was Yang.
<effrenatus> Hrm. Rodney Dangerfield is dead.
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<JDWiker> Bummer. Saw it coming, though.
<Roudi> Hey jez
*** jez is now known as jezter6
<RichRedman> WHAT?
<Peterson> Hey Jez
<effrenatus> (CNN Link)
<jezter6> Wassup all
<TGM_Stan> Hi, Jez
<Spicer> It's kind of the same when you're writing fiction. Sometimes the feedback you get from a peer review or writing circle shows you what you missed...or what the reader missed...
<RichRedman> Man, I knew Janet Leigh was gone, but now Rodney? Crappy.
<RichRedman> Okay, 5 more minutes for me. Any more questions?
<Spicer> Hmmm...question #7?
<Roudi> Yeah. Where you going?
<TGM_Stan> 7) What adventure scenarios do you remember most fondly and what design elements about them appealed to you so much?
<RichRedman> Straight to Hell according to many people.
<Peterson> Thank you Stan for reminding me
<JDWiker> I really liked the adventure I wrote for The Final Church, for Dark*Matter.
<RichRedman> I believe that the adventures I remember most fondly are all Feng Shui games run by our own JD WIker.
<Spicer> I particularly liked the design element Stan! used in the Heartless series for binding them together with the artifacts and the inscriptions on them...
<JDWiker> Who?
<Roudi> Hmm... seems I should go be more productive now. Take care folks... it was a pleasure as always.
<Peterson> You all should know my favorite so far - "Crisis on Canyon Road" I believe was the title.
<Spicer> And what design elements (not simply GM storytelling style) made the adventure stand out for you?
<Roudi> Hopefully we'll have some MODERNIZED goodness for you by the end of the week.
* RichRedman reattaches Wiker's caffeine drip
<Hildulf> Or month.
<Hildulf> :)
<Roudi> We might just make it bimonthly... might have to.
<RichRedman> Definitely colorful characters, whether player characters or GMCs
<RichRedman> A certain "Iron Man Ma" leaps to mind...
<JDWiker> Heh. YOU CANNOT HURT ME! I AM IRON MAN MA!
<Roudi> Anywho, take care
<RichRedman> If I recall correctly, JD, you didn't expect him to be so popular.
<Peterson> Me - I like inventive scenerios (sp?)
<Spicer> Any particular locales, traps, encounters, challenges, etc.?
<RichRedman> Bye Roudi
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<effrenatus> I wonder how this program logs....
<RichRedman> There was this one fight on top of the Space Needle, but I may remember that more because of the flying Volkswagen, and the GMC fumbling his chance to get the grenade out of it...
<TGM_Stan> Well, sadly, I have to get going ... have a good night everyone. Thanks for coming!
<Hildulf> On top of the space needle.
<Peterson> Night Stan!
<Hildulf> Nice.
<Spicer> Thanks, Stan!
<RodneyThompson> G'night, Stan!
<Hildulf> Hey, Stan
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<RichRedman> That sounds like my cue to go make dinner.
<effrenatus> I, too have to be going. It seems I'm now an employee of Green Ronin Publishing LLC, and I have work to do.
<Spicer> Stan! suggested I raise this topic for discussion from a couple of chats ago.
<Peterson> Thanks Rich
<Spicer> I'm glad it proved useful.
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<RichRedman> Thanks for bringing the cool topics for discussion. See y'all next week!
<Hildulf> Oh sure... Stan! leaves and everyone flees the scene...
<Hildulf> :)
<effrenatus> (I'm still a TGM employee :)
<Spicer> And thanks for all the discussion.
*** Signoff: RichRedman ((null))
<RodneyThompson> We love you, Marc.
<effrenatus> Later, all!
<JDWiker> I've got to roll as well.
<Hildulf> Well... Rodney loves you.
* Geist needs to get himself employed doing some more design work.
<Spicer> Me too.
<Spicer> This was fun.